Metal&Shit Forums

How do you explain metal to an outsider? How do you get them to understand that metal is a valid form of music and expression? Without too much burning passion since I find that for some it can totally just leave an outsider scratching their heads. Try to be as objective as possible.

Basically, how would you express metal as a valid form of music? How about those that treat it as needlessly extreme or without merit pointing such things below:

• Makes no sense; noise
• Fascination with Satanism/occult; Satanic music
• Nothing but pure wankery
• Needless portrayal of violence influenced from real life crimes; disrespect to victims
• Just a fad/outlet for the outcasts
• Just a fad/outlet for young white males
• etc.
  

I'd like to see how you guys would tackle these extremes. I know that some listed can get shut down quickly, but still it's good to reconsider. I'm aware that it has been discussed before (iirc at Pirate's Cove or w/e the old forum was), but that essay I think RJ presented although good felt like something was missing.

I'd start first and foremost by saying that it's one of the most diverse genres of music out there, which means that almost all generalizations are inaccurate. Pretty much the only thing that ties all genres together are general lineup outlines - the classic vocal/guitar/bass/drum structure. (Though even that's not that simple - power metal bands often include keyboards, drone metal bands often don't use percussion, plenty of bands are purely instrumental, etc.). As far as the specific arguments against metal go, here's my take on them:

• "Makes no sense; noise" - Probably the hardest thing to dismiss here, because it's so subjective. People who say that usually imagine metal to be a generic amalgam of its most abrasive subgenres (death metal, black metal, etc.), while either not knowing or willingly forgetting about its blues rock roots and other less extreme sides. Guitar distortion may not be friendly a friendly sound to everyone's ears, but it's undeniable that melody and musicianship exists behind it. For "outsiders", this should be particularly noticeable in non-metal covers of metal songs.
• "Fascination with Satanism/occult; Satanic music" - Very many metal bands have nothing to do with satanism/the occult, and the vast majority of those that do either use it solely as lyrical inspiration, shock value, or a gimmick. A lot of metalheads are secularists, and those who are religious are usually tough-skinned and open-minded enough to not get offended.
• "Nothing but pure wankery" - Many metal songs use song structures found in conventional rock music (and less often, progressive rock), and the ones that don't are usually displays of musicianship which can best be appreciated by other musicians, or people with deeper understanding of songwriting.
• "Needless portrayal of violence influenced from real life crimes; disrespect to victims" - My response here is similar to the satanism/occult argument. Most bands that do choose to use that theme use it for lyrics, shocking or as a gimmick; seldom do bands genuinely condone true violence towards other people (not to say that there aren't unfortunate exceptions).
• "Just a fad/outlet for the outcasts" - Disco, 80s synth rock and grunge were real fads which all died in a decade; since the early 70s, heavy metal has only grown stronger. As for the outcast part - Yes, it can be an outlet for them, given how many songs are about rebellion in the word's broadest sense. However, to say that the majority of people who listen to metal listen to it because they feel different is just plain wrong, and an outdated preconception.
• "Outlet for young white males" - As opposed to the previous point, it's an outright fact that the heavy metal community today is dominated by young white males. However, aside from bands which profit from angsty adolescents, not many metal bands engineer their music to fit the target "young white male" demographic. It's just that nobody else wants to join the community, because the genre is dominated by young white males. It's a vicious cycle that needs a revolution to be broken.

So basically, I'd say "Feel free to not listen to metal, but don't try to tell me it isn't a legitimate genre of music".

(11-05-2011 04:35 PM)Ogre Wrote: [ -> ]

• "Needless portrayal of violence influenced from real life crimes; disrespect to victims"

- My response here is similar to the satanism/occult argument. Most bands that do choose to use that theme use it for lyrics, shocking or as a gimmick; seldom do bands genuinely condone true violence towards other people (not to say that there aren't unfortunate exceptions).

Someone could easily argue back that metalheads are then superficial, desensitized and/or immature/childish for liking such things. Which further demonizes them like in the case of black metalheads, whether fan or band member. An argument of, "Oh, I like it because it's cool." or "I like it because it shocks people." seems lacking and is thrown under fad material. People can also point out how a large majority who take it up are male youths which supports further an outsider's argument.

Another thing, I cannot think of a good argument to make to those who have personally experienced horrific occurrences, whether victim or relative, that some bands have straight out written about lyrically or even for example used recorded evidence of criminal cases in their songs. Sometimes I get a sense that it is not so much shocking in that these things have happened and that bands use the material as interpretation or literal retelling, but that bands would actually use these as a form of expression or otherwise that cater to fans. ie. What's the point if it is arguably superficial for shock to outsiders? This shock then serves no real purpose other than a fan thinking, "Oh, it's cool. Blah blah manly! Blah blah gore!" or, "Haha, we're scaring people." So then I see a lot of people saying metal is just a club of immature kids.

I am aware that many simply like some of the more extreme genres completely for musical purposes and I'm on that boat, however I still find it hard to argue how the visual, lyrical and even band name side of things can warrant a better view of it. I mean, it is really a packaged deal.

(11-05-2011 04:35 PM)Ogre Wrote: [ -> ]

• "Outlet for young white males"

- As opposed to the previous point, it's an outright fact that the heavy metal community today is dominated by young white males. However, aside from bands which profit from angsty adolescents, not many metal bands engineer their music to fit the target "young white male" demographic. It's just that nobody else wants to join the community, because the genre is dominated by young white males. It's a vicious cycle that needs a revolution to be broken.

I find that the stance of "outlet for young white males" is hard to argue against given that metal has been dominated by young white males from the very start. And today it is still dominated by largely the same demographic. Granted there are older fans but even then they were of that demographic. The subject matter lyrically (eg. storytelling is Eurocentric, incorporates violence, etc.) and the showmanship that includes mannerisms and etiquette ("That genre is gay," "That track is manly as hell," conduct of manliness, women objectification, etc) is very male-minded. The genre too is very cathartic in that it is a form of primal expression and the competitiveness of being more technical and/or creative grants it being an outlet for frustration, creativity, expression and so on.

I think for this one I would just agree with the stance while pointing out that there are exceptions to the case of course. It shouldn't be taken as a simple blanket statement. This then would pose the question of how it breaks out and still appeal to few outside its demographic, but I think I'll just leave that for another time.

Being a fan of this or a fan of that, any one of us can find reasonable and sensible examples of WHY we appreciate whatever is in question. For metal as a whole, it can easily be boiled down from all the blanket statements above into a small series of valid opinions.


"I like metal because it sometimes deals with reflects with my sense of religion/spirituality"

"I like metal because the aggression of the music/lyrics gives me an outlet for my own aggression that society has very little outlets for that aren't morally or legally frowned upon."

"I like metal because it gives the added benefit of a listening community of people with similar views and personalities as I have"

"I like metal because many metal bands are quality musicians of merit and many metal songs are expertly written."

"I like metal because it inherently and forever will contain within it the essence of the underdog, the overachiever who does not get the credit it deserves no matter how popular it becomes. Something will always be more popular and this makes me feel as if I'm on the inside of something many people just cannot understand, which in turn makes me feel superior in my taste of music."

"I like metal because the ratio of niggerdom to everything not niggerdom favors metal more than most other genres of music today, especially those genres popular in large circles."

"I like metal because of the mental imagery; whether it be warfare, demons and dragons, mythical figures and places, alternative views of real subjects of society, politics, religion, etc. I can relate to and enjoy the imagery metal music stirs in my imagination."


To be honest, all of these either still do or have at some point applied to my love of metal. Of course, first and foremost, speaking for myself, I would say I like metal because of the combination of excellent musicianship and mental imagery. The most "epic" of metal is my favorite; the songs that take me to other places and offer me alternative views of the world around me or create worlds of their own for me to ponder. It's this admittedly "geeky" but ultimately imagination-driven element of many varieties of metal that appeals to me most of all. Trying to translate this to somebody without either the imagination or any appeal to the blunt and aggressive nature of metal is like trying to teach a dog to play poker. It's not worth your time to try and their time to listen.

(11-05-2011 03:14 PM)Effigy Wrote: [ -> ]Basically, how would you express metal as a valid form of music?

I'd punch them in the face. That sums it damn near perfectly. Also, they probably listen to horrendous music if metal needs to be explained to them; so perhaps a second shot to the chops for being a pantywaist.

(11-05-2011 03:14 PM)Effigy Wrote: [ -> ]How do you explain metal to an outsider? How do you get them to understand that metal is a valid form of music and expression? Without too much burning passion since I find that for some it can totally just leave an outsider scratching their heads. Try to be as objective as possible.

Basically, how would you express metal as a valid form of music? How about those that treat it as needlessly extreme or without merit pointing such things below:

• Makes no sense; noise
• Fascination with Satanism/occult; Satanic music
• Nothing but pure wankery
• Needless portrayal of violence influenced from real life crimes; disrespect to victims
• Just a fad/outlet for the outcasts
• Just a fad/outlet for young white males
• etc.
  

I'd like to see how you guys would tackle these extremes. I know that some listed can get shut down quickly, but still it's good to reconsider. I'm aware that it has been discussed before (iirc at Pirate's Cove or w/e the old forum was), but that essay I think RJ presented although good felt like something was missing.

does anyone actually act like this? I like metal far less than almost anyone else I've seen on the internet but those arguments are still pretty transparently ridiculous

They do in Poland. Especially with all the negative buzz Nergal is getting here.

(11-08-2011 12:04 PM)Effigy Wrote: [ -> ]Someone could easily argue back that metalheads are then superficial, desensitized and/or immature/childish for liking such things. Which further demonizes them like in the case of black metalheads, whether fan or band member. An argument of, "Oh, I like it because it's cool." or "I like it because it shocks people." seems lacking and is thrown under fad material. People can also point out how a large majority who take it up are male youths which supports further an outsider's argument.

Another thing, I cannot think of a good argument to make to those who have personally experienced horrific occurrences, whether victim or relative, that some bands have straight out written about lyrically or even for example used recorded evidence of criminal cases in their songs. Sometimes I get a sense that it is not so much shocking in that these things have happened and that bands use the material as interpretation or literal retelling, but that bands would actually use these as a form of expression or otherwise that cater to fans. ie. What's the point if it is arguably superficial for shock to outsiders? This shock then serves no real purpose other than a fan thinking, "Oh, it's cool. Blah blah manly! Blah blah gore!" or, "Haha, we're scaring people." So then I see a lot of people saying metal is just a club of immature kids.

I am aware that many simply like some of the more extreme genres completely for musical purposes and I'm on that boat, however I still find it hard to argue how the visual, lyrical and even band name side of things can warrant a better view of it. I mean, it is really a packaged deal.

To be honest, I'm not really a fan of those kinds of bands, in fact I should be one of the last people on this forum to defend them. A lot of br00tal d3th metuhl fans are just dumb blockheads who want an excuse to mosh and go roughhousing with other people. However, there are a couple of things to take into account. The first thing is that not everybody understands "maturity" the same way - for me, enjoying what you truly find to be enjoyable without giving into social pressure, even if it's considered childish by some, is a sign of maturity. The second thing is that although it's possible to have extreme music without extreme "meta-elements" (band name, lyrics, stage persona etc.), often it just makes more sense to have your imagery fit the attitude of the music. Using Justin Bieber's "Baby" as lyrical inspiration for non-parodies or coming on stage wearing a My Little Pony shirt just wouldn't work in an extreme metal band.

Kim Wrote:I find that the stance of "outlet for young white males" is hard to argue against given that metal has been dominated by young white males from the very start. And today it is still dominated by largely the same demographic. Granted there are older fans but even then they were of that demographic. The subject matter lyrically (eg. storytelling is Eurocentric, incorporates violence, etc.) and the showmanship that includes mannerisms and etiquette ("That genre is gay," "That track is manly as hell," conduct of manliness, women objectification, etc) is very male-minded. The genre too is very cathartic in that it is a form of primal expression and the competitiveness of being more technical and/or creative grants it being an outlet for frustration, creativity, expression and so on.

I think for this one I would just agree with the stance while pointing out that there are exceptions to the case of course. It shouldn't be taken as a simple blanket statement. This then would pose the question of how it breaks out and still appeal to few outside its demographic, but I think I'll just leave that for another time.

That is why I said it would take a revolution to change things. Metal does have the capacity to be gender neutral, just something big needs to happen in order for that to become a reality. Russian Circles is a perfect example of an already existing metal band that knows no sex boundaries when it comes to their fans (they're labelled as "girlfriend metal" because your girlfriend or potential one has a chance to enjoy them, or at the very least tolerate them ). Though to be honest, I have my doubts about how much of the problem lies just in the relatively misogynistic culture of metal. Just take a look at the R&B/Hip-hop scene, which is extremely popular amongst females - even though they're objectified in the lyrics and music videos even stronger than they are in metal.

(11-09-2011 04:08 AM)adny Wrote: [ -> ]does anyone actually act like this? I like metal far less than almost anyone else I've seen on the internet but those arguments are still pretty transparently ridiculous

Yes. Especially the Satanist one, youth/young white males and teenage fad. Some are from forums and others are from offline conversations or things I've heard mentioned. It's not as black and white as I put it there but for the sake of brevity I typed it out as you see there.

I made this thread not so much as to find ways to convince people to understand or even like metal, but just to garner the metal community's POV. Most people who have asked me some of the questions on there were willing to learn and listen. No one has really given me a hard time when explaining about the genre.

(11-09-2011 03:09 PM)Ogre Wrote: [ -> ]They do in Poland. Especially with all the negative buzz Nergal is getting here.

To be honest, I'm not really a fan of those kinds of bands, in fact I should be one of the last people on this forum to defend them. A lot of br00tal d3th metuhl fans are just dumb blockheads who want an excuse to mosh and go roughhousing with other people. However, there are a couple of things to take into account. The first thing is that not everybody understands "maturity" the same way - for me, enjoying what you truly find to be enjoyable without giving into social pressure, even if it's considered childish by some, is a sign of maturity. The second thing is that although it's possible to have extreme music without extreme "meta-elements" (band name, lyrics, stage persona etc.), often it just makes more sense to have your imagery fit the attitude of the music. Using Justin Bieber's "Baby" as lyrical inspiration for non-parodies or coming on stage wearing a My Little Pony shirt just wouldn't work in an extreme metal band.

I've never even heard a Justin Bieber song. I agree that meta-elements should match up with the music and adds to it, but at this point it has partly (d)evolved into something to be mocked. Instead of for the sake of cohesiveness with the music and image it feels to be more on the fake/superficial side of things. Sometimes I feel people don't really know why they do this other than it being the "standard". Sheep. That's just my impression personally.

Ogre Wrote:

Kim Wrote:I find that the stance of "outlet for young white males" is hard to argue against given that metal has been dominated by young white males from the very start. And today it is still dominated by largely the same demographic. Granted there are older fans but even then they were of that demographic. The subject matter lyrically (eg. storytelling is Eurocentric, incorporates violence, etc.) and the showmanship that includes mannerisms and etiquette ("That genre is gay," "That track is manly as hell," conduct of manliness, women objectification, etc) is very male-minded. The genre too is very cathartic in that it is a form of primal expression and the competitiveness of being more technical and/or creative grants it being an outlet for frustration, creativity, expression and so on.

I think for this one I would just agree with the stance while pointing out that there are exceptions to the case of course. It shouldn't be taken as a simple blanket statement. This then would pose the question of how it breaks out and still appeal to few outside its demographic, but I think I'll just leave that for another time.

That is why I said it would take a revolution to change things. Metal does have the capacity to be gender neutral, just something big needs to happen in order for that to become a reality. Russian Circles is a perfect example of an already existing metal band that knows no sex boundaries when it comes to their fans (they're labelled as "girlfriend metal" because your girlfriend or potential one has a chance to enjoy them, or at the very least tolerate them ). Though to be honest, I have my doubts about how much of the problem lies just in the relatively misogynistic culture of metal. Just take a look at the R&B/Hip-hop scene, which is extremely popular amongst females - even though they're objectified in the lyrics and music videos even stronger than they are in metal.

I acknowledged your revolution point. But as is it's a huge ass thing to hurdle over that is not going to happen soon. Also I was mostly nitpicking on your wording. I explained more previously but summary:

• "the heavy metal community today is dominated by young white males" (it's been from the start and continuously is)
• "not many metal bands engineer their music to fit the target "young white male" demographic," (that is still largely the target demographic whether they are consciously aware of it or not, past and present)
• "It's just that nobody else wants to join the community." (there is no real reason to join the community other than if you love the music itself and it is damn hard to either way)

R&B I know is popular to females. Generally anything melodic and emotively sensual is. Hip Hop not so much. I feel that a lot of people who are fans of the genre, at least with consideration to the mainstream, are more as moderates or purely casual listeners of the most available music out there. At least in North America it's still hip hop/rap with pop. As for the more visible objectification in R&B/Hip Hop, it's because it is mainstream and readily available that they are at length accepted. We're like bombarded by it. What alternatives are readily presented to us? Not much. Also most people don't care about music enough to go search in depth about it like we do here. Just because metal is not mainstream and not readily available does not mean it is any less female-friendly.

But anyway, couple the availability, whether good or bad, and the proportion of female R&B and Hip Hop artists as compared to metal then of course you would have less female metal fans.

EDIT: I feel like I haven't explained the Hip Hop/R&B bit very well. Will get to it eventually.

You fucks are all complicating the matter. Check my post and try to add to the list! It's fun!

I like metal that makes me feel like an incredible bad-ass to listen to.

"Makes no sense; noise" - I don't even really know how to respond to this one. Yes, a lot of the more extreme varieties metal are "noisy", but the noise serves an artistic purpose; usually to make the sound more filthy (in death metal's case), or to add a misanthropic aura to the music (as is the case with black metal). That's part of what makes the genres what they are; and to imply that noisiness or ugliness in art is invalid, that there is an imaginary boundary where an amount of harshness becomes "unacceptable" or "too much", is a crime against art to the highest degree. If ignorami like that had their way, revolutionary artists like Jackson pollock would never have painted such breathtaking, boundary-pushing works, just because his paintings are so rough, chaotic and ugly. I don't encounter people dumb enough to make remarks such as that; but I will say that in this case, the problem is with the listener, and their inability to grasp the concept of "artistic expression" -- not the genre.
"Fascination with Satanism/occult; Satanic music" - I see nothing wrong with bands that deal with Satanism or the occult. I believe in a god, myself, but if Christianity (something that is far more fucking dangerous than Satanism imo) is acceptable lyrical matter, then I see no reason for the double-standard.
"Nothing but pure wankery" - I hate wankery as much as the next guy. But there is enough well-written metal for this point to be invalid right off the bat. I don't even want to bother with this one.
"Needless portrayal of violence influenced from real life crimes; disrespect to victims" - "Disrespect to victims"? I'd tell that person to get fucking real. Metal that deal with violence and gore, do so because they bring to light the dark side of the world, what actually happens in real life. That's why I love those kinds of metal so much, because they're fucking real. Yes, I'd love to live in a world where there was no such thing as murder or rape also. But it's not happening, so get the hell out of Dreamland. Now let's put on some "Stripped, Raped, and Strangled" by Cannibal Corpse, and feel good about it.
"Just a fad/outlet for the outcasts" - 41-year-old genres can be "fads" now? I did not know this. As for the "outcast" part, I thought that whole social construct ended after high school. I mean, yeah, metal deals with rebellion, individuality, the strength of the self, etc, but I thought this was something that should be supported, not looked down upon.
"Outlet for young white males" - The genre may be dominated by white males, but it is definitely not just an outlet.

(11-09-2011 09:57 PM)Der Metzgermeister Wrote: [ -> ]I like metal that makes me feel like an incredible bad-ass to listen to.

I know what you're talking about.

Fuck yes.

(11-09-2011 09:57 PM)Der Metzgermeister Wrote: [ -> ]I like metal that makes me feel like an incredible bad-ass to listen to.

Somewhat relevant

The second last panel evoked an adrenaline rush, while the last one left me feeling righteous satisfaction; great justice has been administered indiscriminately. It felt as if, if only for the briefest instant, mankind was heading towards a brighter future.

+rep

Related.

That is fucking manly. I think my pubes just started sprouting pubes.

Methinks this is the last of 'em, at least I've only ever seen 3 comics that share this pattern. There just fucking has to be more!

(11-10-2011 02:48 AM)The Butt Wrote: [ -> ]"Needless portrayal of violence influenced from real life crimes; disrespect to victims" - "Disrespect to victims"? I'd tell that person to get fucking real. Metal that deal with violence and gore, do so because they bring to light the dark side of the world, what actually happens in real life. That's why I love those kinds of metal so much, because they're fucking real. Yes, I'd love to live in a world where there was no such thing as murder or rape also. But it's not happening, so get the hell out of Dreamland. Now let's put on some "Stripped, Raped, and Strangled" by Cannibal Corpse, and feel good about it.

It's pretty stupid to tell someone who has gone through a horrific ordeal to get real about it. They have to deal with it the rest of their lives. Also, realism is fine and dandy and all, but what you fail to realize is that people's issue with it is how it glorifies violence and/or comes off as superficial and tacky, especially with how excessive it can be. Unless you're arguing with someone who lives under a rock and lie to themselves that the world is perfect then your argument would mean something, but otherwise most would probably brush it off.


Second comic is the best so far.